>> i'm going to need everyone to take a breath. now, feel free to debate and disagree about the aesthetic, musical or artistic value of beyonce's performance but once you start blaming electrical engineering failures or moral dissenter grags on a married mom and business woman, you have entered into woman blaming like pan dora, a woman who opens a box and unleashes miserable on the world or eve who ate the apple. now it's beyonce, with sunday afternoon football punctuated by go daddy commercials. right. these are the stories we tell and they have consequences. in 2010 when conservative

candidates campaigned on improving the economy? as far as i can tell the main target of all that economy-improving legislative energy was women's uteruses, which were targeted with a number of new laws restricting abortion access. it's like they think women making their own reproductive choices not wall street making bad bettes brought down the economy. rachel will be back on monday. i'll see you tomorrow morning and sunday 10:00 am eastern. monday. i'll see you sunday, sunday morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. "hardball" is up next. fight on the right. let's play "hardbal play "hardb" good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this

harsh show happening on the right. as i speak, you can hear the right versus right, fingering are waving. karl rove the architect of the iraq war, the escapee from the cia scandal, who wasted fat cat money by the tens of millions, that karl rove is thumping around the country now like a wounded elephant threatening to crush the party fringes. so the fight's begun. while steve king, the infamous joe walsh, rush limbaugh, paul brown, all the inhabitants of the cuckoo nest are scrambling because karl rove is drawing

lines in the sand. rape candidates, witches, second remedy amendment types. stop making the democrats look smart and reasonable by running candidates. the joy is that each of the right-wing fascists thinks they are the same ones. the ones who have to protect the party from the others. tonight the duel to the death drives deeper, it's do or die, fight to the death. the winners get to run against hillary clinton. the losers get to say it's not their fault they lost. that doesn't make sense. neither does the fight on the right. with me tonight are two msnbc political analysts. joy, it really is a joy to watch this. to watch rove running around as a new matt dillon cleaning up the party, cleaning up main street from all the bad guys, when many people would say karl rove has been the problem from, well, since 2000 when he brought dubya in. >> i love the way you call him the cuckoo's nest.

karl rove's whole strategy is he found a way to convince the cuckoo's nest that george w. bush was their guy. and to convince evangelicals that george w. bush was your guy. and convince the business wing of the party and say george w. bush is your guy. he sold them a bill of goods, and what they got back was medicare part d, a ballooning deficit, and a financial crisis that devastated the country, a failed war -- a war in iraq that was ill-advised to put it mildly, and now the cuckoo's nest who he cultivated as the ground troops, the shock troops to win elections in 2000 and 2004, they think they're in charge and they're not going to listen to him saying they're not. >> what was the big thing with karl rove? did he start a war to celebrate the tax cut or have a tax cut to celebrate the war. i mean, he put it all together. joy put it right. i forgot to mention the prescription drug thing thrown in without financing it.

>> right, right, right. and, you know, he did do a great job in the ots mobilizing and energizing the right wing base to get behind george w. bush, and then he and others did a great job in the last few years under barack obama of energizing them by demonizing barack obama and pushing them to the fringe. >> rove went on fox last night to defend himself and to profess his love for the tea party. what is he up to? he's trying to trash can these people. let's watch. >> i love these groups that are criticizing us saying they're fake conservatives. well, i repeat, we spent $30 million for tea party senate candidates and $25 million. there's no group that comes close to what crossroads has done in terms of financial support for tea party candidates. >> and we believe you. >> the question is not tea party or not, it's a question of whether or not they're a bad

candidate or not. >> so what does o'reilly think of these people? o'reilly has an iq. i may disagree with him, but he must be looking at rove like what's your latest stuff here? what are you selling here? >> exactly. he might as well -- karl rove should have written on that whiteboard, i have no principles. karl rove doesn't care what the ideology is. he's just selling a product. remember, he's the guy who described the iraq war as a product and said you don't take a product to market in august. this guy is into power. he's always been into just getting power for its own sake. his first ever campaign he was involved in was in college when he snuck onto the campaign of a democrat running for something like treasurer in illinois and wrote those leaflets which he's distributed to homeless shelters saying, for a good time and free women and liquor, come to this democrat's rally. this guy has no principles. >> sliding down the iq scale here to texas governor rick perry. he told laura ingraham today that the tea party isn't at fault for the losses wracked up by republicans. let's listen to governor perry. >> i would suggest to you that

people who try to moderate their views to win a particular vote are going to be weaker and weaker as time goes. i think people want to see people they believe, people they trust, and people that are going to be consistent in their positions. so moderation from the standpoint of in pursuit of electoral victory is a failure in my opinion. >> you know, every once in a wile somebody comes along in politics who doesn't know anything about politics. spiro agnew would talk about people being squishy soft on communism, unaware of the whole mccarthy period, 20 years of that kind of talk getting you in nothing but trouble. here's a guy who calls himself a texas conservative who has no memory or any knowledge of, apparently, the history of modern conservatism. when he said moderation gets you in trouble, well, let's listen to barry goldwater who cooked his party for years with this line back in '64. >> i would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. let me remind you also that

moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. >> you know, all i can say is wow. that kind of straight from the hip, right wing talk, and there's perry with absolutely no knowledge of this kind of talk that moderation weakens you. civility -- >> don't tell me you have any expectations -- >> okay. i'm just setting him up. >> let me play off -- >> are you accusing me of parroting these guys if i suggest they might have had an iq? >> yes. let me play off something joy said. she talked about karl rove in a very cynical way, and i agree with that. but at the same time there is a divide and there's always been in the republican party between the establishment crowd and the populist -- >> what side is rove on? >> right now he's more establishment, but when a party is out of -- >> that's what a party establishment looks like. >> exactly. but when a party is out of power, that's when these tensions come out and they start eating their own.

they can't go after barack obama now, but in order to maintain their own power and to have a debate -- >> you know, let's get back to the person stuff. rush limbaugh sided with the tea party earlier this week saying rove's plan will backfire on conservatives. let's watch. >> the establishment republicans, the inside the beltway establishment types, remember, these are the people that supported charlie crist over marco rubio. these are the brains. these are the guys who are going to protect the republican party from you. they also opposed rand paul. and, remember, they supported arlen specter over pat toomey and on and on. there are countless examples. the bottom line is they don't have any better record at picking winners than the, quote, unquote, amateur tea party types do. and even when they pick winners, what do we end up winning?

we get squishy republican moderates. >> there's that squishy. >> they got tax hikes for -- >> we have to remind ourselves -- this is this man. they say a certain kind of bug or insect would survive a nuclear war. we don't have to use those terms, but we know which bug it is. look at the rap sheet on this guy, karl rove. let's go down memory lane and remind ourselves at least, if the right wing doesn't, of some of karl rove's greatest hits. as a top adviser to george w. bush, he sold the war in iraq to everybody it seems. he got off scot-free even though he was at the center of the cia leak scandal. walked from that one. the architect couldn't help a republican majority in the 2006 midterms bring the democrats back to power in both the house and senate for the first time. he blew it all on the table. and in 2012 the sunlight foundation reported that crossroads had a 1%, $1 in $100, return on its election investment. so karl rove failed putting together a republican

realignment, failed in holding the house and the white house and the senate, lost all that. got involved in the cia leak case, somehow got through that where scooter did get caught and the president -- actually the vice president should have been caught. that's not a good investment, joy, and yet there he is out there telling the republican party what it's got to do is get rid of the other guys, not him. >> absolutely. i'm glad you played that clip from rush limbaugh because in a lot of ways karl rove and rush limbaugh are very much the same. they're both using the same sort of know-nothing crowd, the people in the hinterlands who are angry, who don't understand why the country is changing, who don't understand the new america they don't feel comfortable in. they're both using them to sell a product. for rush limbaugh it's to get his advertisers there because terrestrial radio is dying and he has to keep his show going. for karl rove it's the accumulation of power by tricking people. he doesn't necessarily -- >> terrestrial radio. young lady, you've done it again. you're teaching me this business i'm in. what is terrestrial radio -- >> radio as opposed to satellite, xm as oppose the to -- >> when is the first time -- >> when is the first time you used that term in your life? >> only because i used to be in the radio business. when you're in radio --

>> it's like e.t. terrestrial radio. >> but karl rove needs a raison d'etre, a reason to exist. he needs -- >> i know french. >> i know you know french. >> he needs a reason to exist. the tea party has gotten their market share of the republican product, so he needs -- >> both of you guys, tell me this, what percentage of the regular voting republican party, the party that voted for dubya, we're going to learn something tonight, joy, you first, what percentage of the regular republican voter, the people who vote regular republican for congress and president, is tea party oriented? in other words hard right? >> i think it's a third. i think the republican party really is one-third evangelicals, one-third tea party know-nothings, and one-third business types. >> thanks, joy, have a nice weekend. you, too, david. how deep is the debate over

drones? critics on the progressive left, some of them, and libertarian right are taking issue with the obama administration drone policy. this is a family dispute in my house. polls show most americans support, even most liberals if you will, even when it means killing americans who are plotting with al qaeda to kill other americans. plus, four senators, two democrats and two republicans, are really working on a deal to expand at least background checks for gun sales. two of the four senators are members of the nra. if they can strike a deal, then a big part of president obama's gun safety proposals could be within reach. plus, the terrific movie "silver linings playbook" puts mental illness in the spotlight tonight. we're joined by the director of that film, the great david russell, to talk about the issue and the oscar history the movie could make. i think it's got a shot. texas governor rick perry escalates that war with his california counterpart -- he's not even slightly a counterpart. jerry brown is so much better. that's coming in the "sideshow" tonight. and this is "hardball" the place for politics. [ female announcer ] going to sleep may be easy, but when you wake up

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welcome back to "hardball." america's drone warfare got a public airing yesterday as president obama's pick to head the cia went before senators at his confirmation hearing. john brennan strongly defended the program of which he's been called the chief architect. >> i think there is a misimpression on the part of some american people who believe that we take strikes to punish terrorists for past transgressions. nothing could be further from the truth. we only take such actions as a last resort to save lives when there's no other alternative to taking an action that's going to mitigate that threat. so we need to make sure there's an understanding, and the people that were standing up here today, i think they really have a misunderstanding of what we do as a government and the care that we take and the agony that we go through to make sure that we do not have any collateral injuries or deaths. >> well, brennan's testimony had been interrupted there you see by code pink five times, by anti-war protesters called code pink.

they're upset about the drones. polls show for the most part those protesters out there, and they're legitimate, represent a small minority of the country. most americans back using drones to carry out targeted assassinations. and while senators took issue with the white house's secrecy surrounding the program, no one voiced any objections to the drones themselves. this is going to be a hot discussion here, too. cynthia tucker is a visiting professor at the university of georgia. ron reagan is an msnbc political analyst. i think you're both progressives. i was driving home from philadelphia last night, and i was listening to "the ed show" on radio, on satellite, and he took one of those polls. now, this question was hardly put together in a way that's justified one end of the answer, but it came out the other end i think. do you support the policy of targeted killings of american citizens? now, i would think maybe 1% would have said yes the way this was phrased. do you support the policy of targeted killings of american citizens? 78% said yes. a progressive audience that

watches and listens to ed. a progressive audience, 78% while that show is on the air. i think he was surprised by it. i was certainly surprised by it. your thinking, ron. this is a progressive audience, 4 out of 5 are saying, yeah, get those bad guys. they're turncoats. if they're americans, they're not one of us, they're one of them now. your thoughts. >> i think most americans agree if there are individuals, even americans, that are imminently planning to cause destruction and death in the united states, that we ought to do something about it. we ought to interdict. the question though it seems to me is not whether we should do this at all but on whose say-so do we do it? >> cynthia, you pick up on this. suppose you get a call in the middle of the night or with a few hours notice, we've got a target, a high-value target in yemen. we believe this person is about to conduct an operation against one of our ships in the gulf. we got to stop them. we've got the technology, we've got them in sights. do we do it? the judge is asked yes or no. how does he become -- >> chris -- >> how does he stop this and say i of my own volition say tough

nuts, i'm not going to do it. let the guy do his thing? >> i don't envision that that's the way the system would work. the people who are placed on these kill lists are on there for at least days, if not weeks or months, before the drone operators decide that this is the moment where we have the right intelligence to act on taking them out. so why not present that evidence to an independent review body at the moment you believe you have enough evidence to say, these people represent such a danger to the united states they need to be killed. >> i think yesterday john brennan was grilled about various aspects of this program, including the rights of americans who might be on the kill list. take a look at how he answered a question on that from senator ron wyden of oregon.

let's listen. >> do you believe that the president should provide an individual american with the opportunity to surrender before killing him? >> any american who joins al qaeda will know full well that they have joined an organization that is at war with the united states and that has killed thousands upon thousands of individuals, many, many of them who are americans. >> i guess this goes back to, ron, to another tricky question. we'd like to believe that being born in the united states under the 14th amendment entitles you to all the rights all three of us have. you're entitled to full rights of american citizenship. at what point do you yield that up in any kind of moral way you think you're comfortable with? when do you yield it up? >> i think if you put on the uniform, so to speak, of another team and are looking to kill americans and attack the united states of america, that you've crossed a line and now, you know, you're going -- >> what about domestic terrorists in this country who tried to blow up and have blown

up public facilities because they're enemies of the united states government at least. the way they look at it. >> this raises a very interesting question when we talk about drones. if the excuse for using drones is imminent threat to american lives, which seems to be the rationale, what if that threat is coming from within the united states? there is another point that's worth making here. the french philosopher jean-paul sartre once said when you choose for yourself, you choose for all mankind. if we are okay sending drones over other countries to kill american citizens or other individuals without that country's permission, we have to acknowledge then that when this technology spreads to other countries, and it will, it's not that sophisticated, that we're okay then with other governments doing the same thing in other countries, and where does that lead exactly? >> on the same program, both of you, we have heard the phrase raison d'etre, and we have heard a reference to jean-paul sartre. i'm very proud of our program tonight.

i'm going into my exostential world tonight. thank you very much, ron reagan. thank you. have a nice weekend. up next, texas governor rick perry escalates that fight, kind of a tussle, with california's jerry brown. i'm betting on brown in this one. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. we are gatho celebrate the union of tim and laura. it's amazing how appreciative people are when you tell them they could save a lot of money on their car insurance by switching to geico...they may even make you their best man. may i have the rings please? ah, helzberg diamonds. nice choice, mate. ...and now in the presence of these guests we join this loving couple. oh dear... geico. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. so we created the extraordinarily comfortable sleep number experience. a collection of innovations designed around a bed with dualair technology that allows you to adjust to the support your body needs - each of your bodies. our sleep professionals will help you find your

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. now to the si"side show." some added heat on perry versus jerry today. earlier this week i told you about the tussle between the governors of our two biggest states, texas and california. rick perry began running a radio ad out in california trying to lure business owners to texas, and jerry brown was unmoved by the five-figure ad buy or as he put it -- >> it's not a burp. it's barely a fart. >> thank you. >> anyway, turns out perry isn't just sticking to the airwaves. next week he will be showing up

himself in california, cities like san francisco and los angeles, to keep up the move to texas gimmick. anyway, a cartoonist for "the sacramento bee" is out with a pretend pitch. from perry, we got three advantages over california. first, we got your low taxes. second, we got your low wages, and i can't remember the third. to which the other guy responds, the wide open spaces in your head. anyway, next, it's no secret that chris christie and newark mayor cory booker aren't exactly best friends. i didn't know that. christie kicked off the week joking about his weight with david letterman. soon after he was telling a former white house physician to shut up for expressing concern over his health and his weight. anyway, guess what the project -- project booker just announced yesterday? his new partnership with weight watchers to help combat obesity up in newark. well, surely this one was in the works for a while, but strange about the talk and the timing.

by the way, it seems like christie is still in attack mode over the comments from that physician. yesterday dr. connie mariano recounted the phone call she got from the governor. >> it was essentially the tone of the press conference but louder. >> pretty much yelled the whole time. >> uh-huh. if this is the way you handle stress, is this presidential? have to think about that. is this a presidential way to behave? come on. >> there's a political commentary from the doctor. apparently calling her a hack at the press conference was not enough. that's "hardball" for now. coming up, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. from jammin' jerk chicken, to creamy gouda bisque. see what's new from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. see what's new from campbell's. you know, from our 4,000 television commercials. yep, there i am with flo. hoo-hoo! watch it!

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